As some of you might know you could do Arena in Vanilla WoW. It was only Skirmishes since the rating system wasn't implemented until TBC. How do you feel about Arena in Classic? Obviously, it wouldn't work like it did in TBC, but would having Skirmishes be ok?

Not sure how long Blizzard is planning on going with patches but I think skirmishes came last months before TBC and ranked started with TBC. I'm #nochanges so if they implement it same way they did in Vanilla I wouldn't mind.

Redridgegnoll is coming at PvP implementations from every angle he can think of hahaha. Naw, it wouldnt suit the game. Classes are really imbalanced in Classic which is magnified in a 2v2 or 3v3 setting, this would underscore the inherent balancing issues with the game. In large scale combat, individual balance is less important and the rock paper scissors matchups actually work really well. Vanilla was balanced around largescale combat, I wouldnt want to see that diminished when the focus of PvP became smaller scale.

If they would implement a PTR server and Blizz would organise ladders and such this could be a thing.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Vanilla was balanced around largescale combat, I wouldnt want to see that diminished when the focus of PvP became smaller scale.

This, but also that was the TBC patch where we got TBC talents to play with as well...as much as that was in vanilla it was TBC content aka after 1.12.
Eventually something will need to be done because we will be done with content...but for now lets stay the course...enjoy it till its almost over and revive it with taking down the burning crusade...spoiler...

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Redridgegnoll is coming at PvP implementations from every angle he can think of hahaha. Naw, it wouldnt suit the game. Classes are really imbalanced in Classic which is magnified in a 2v2 or 3v3 setting, this would underscore the inherent balancing issues with the game. In large scale combat, individual balance is less important and the rock paper scissors matchups actually work really well. Vanilla was balanced around largescale combat, I wouldnt want to see that diminished when the focus of PvP became smaller shcale.

1v1 dueling is pretty balanced aside from a few matchups as shown by the Classic Duelers League event. It's not like Arena was ever that well balanced in the expansions.

Vanilla WoW was not balanced around large scale combat. It was heavily balanced around solo combat or small group combat. The game intended for all classes to be able to quest solo by killing one mob at a time. Blizzard intentionally designed the game to be less group or class dependent.

Large scale PvP in WoW has always been terrible due to how class mechanics worked. The combat was never designed for it. If you notice there are basically no AE crowd control abilities or classes. AE damage and healing abilities are also very weak in WoW relative to some other MMOs. Almost all damage sources are meant for single target.

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

1v1 dueling is pretty balanced aside from a few matchups as shown by the Classic Duelers League event. It's not like Arena was ever that well balanced in the expansions.

The Classic duelers league has an extensive ruleset. Certain classes arent even allowed to use certain abilities. There are plenty of restrictions of combat sequences. For example a rogue cant "delay" combat which is very subjective. In a skirmish mode a rogue would interrupt combat for a prolonged period of time to wait for the best possible opener (ie. cooldowns). If you are an experienced arena player and watch the stringent ruleset of the CDL, you would understand that the CDL is designed to be as balanced as it can be. Certain abilities like fear often end duels in the CDL due to the combat zone being so small in a duel, so winning warlocks are less inclined to spam fear in certain circumstances because they could forfeit their win and reset the duel if they fear their foe out of the duel area OR they could be accused of delaying combat and lose the round. This is all to say that the matchups in the CDL would not translate to similar outcomes in an environment with less rules. Worse yet, certain classes combine with others INCREDIBLY well...

Some of the things CDL has banned?
Arcane Bomb is banned.
Flash Bomb is banned.
Goblin Rocket Helmet it is banned.
Gnomish Mind Control Cap is banned.
Arcanite Dragonling is banned.
Thistle Tea is banned
Healthstones are banned (even for warlocks)
Tidal Charm is banned.
Lifestone is banned.
Furbolg Medicine Pouch is banned.
...
Stealth Classes will always get the uncontested opener in a duel.
...
Shaman may have up to 4 totems down at the start of a duel.
...
In Rogue vs. Rogue matchup, each competitor will trade an uncontested opener on their opponent. If the match goes to 3, the third match will begin with both Rogues 20 yards apart in stealth and commencing the duel without moving beyond the 20 yard perimeter. Dire Maul stamina buffs and Power Word: Fortitude will be granted to each Rogue.
...

I mean... Their list is HUGE. And VERY detailed. They went very deep to try and balance classes.

The CDL has a HEAVILY modified ruleset to accomodate for short-comings in specific classes. Balance. The CDL has done its best to BALANCE the game. Taking the classes as they are and porting them into an arena setting would be bad. Come on man, think about it.

But dont take my word for it...

"The league will also feature a comprehensive ruleset designed to balance the scales between the classes"- CDL
https://www.method.gg/

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Vanilla WoW was not balanced around large scale combat.

Yes it was.

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

It was heavily balanced around solo combat or small group combat. The game intended for all classes to be able to quest solo by killing one mob at a time. Blizzard intentionally designed the game to be less group or class dependent.

No. Vanilla was a raiding game. The game was balanced around raiding. Which is why about 90% of the content in vanilla is raids.

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Large scale PvP in WoW has always been terrible due to how class mechanics worked. The combat was never designed for it. If you notice there are basically no AE crowd control abilities or classes. AE damage and healing abilities are also very weak in WoW relative to some other MMOs.

Let me introduce you to the frost mage, who has a wide array of AE crowd control abilities. He disagrees with your assessment.

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Almost all damage sources are meant for single target.

Warriors can cleave (WW, sweeping strikes, etc). AE fear. Piercing howl for snares
Hunters can multi shot, volley and trap
Mages have MANY AE options
Warlocks can hellfire and rain of fire, howl of terror
Priests can holy nova, AE fear
bla bla bla Sapper charges, bla bla bla grenades... bla bla bla various trinkets... bla bla bla, everyone has AE.

The game is balanced around PvE. PvE is focused around 40 man combat in a raid environment. PvP is 10-40 man and any adjustments made for PvP were made within this context. Youre out of touch friend.

Your ignorance of pre-WoW mmorpgs is very apparent. WoW was designed with solo gameplay in mind. Any class could solo level to 60. Groups required less class synergy than in Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot. Your group was no longer crippled if you lacked a specific class. Blizzard watered down RPG class archetypes into a simple Tank/DPS/Healer pyramid. They removed buff classes and decreased the power of class buffs. They gave support classes multiple roles and playstyles. They gave offensive and defensive abilities to all classes, aschewing the "pure" dps or healer class mechanics of other mmorpgs.

The game has little to no AE class abilities. Other mmorpgs had classes that were designed solely for AE damage, crowd control, and healing. Large scale PvP was never a design goal of WoW, which is partly why it is so lacklustre and low skill.

The classes were not designed around 40 man raiding. They were designed for casual and small group gameplay. Blizzard continually homogenized the classes throughout Vanilla, because that is what the playerbase demanded. There is a reason you can do Molten Core with 40 Druids or 40 Shaman. Think of your MC raid. Do you really need 5 of each class? Of course not. Multiple classes can fill multiple jobs just fine. In a game like DAOC, if you were missing a specific class/spec, well then guess what, you were doomed.

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

The game has little to no AE class abilities.

This is factually incorrect. Unrelated question, why dont you post on your Redridgegnoll account anymore?

I am again impressed by @Stfuppercuts patience on discussing with trolls without getting personal or throwing insults.

@KezanIslander please talk about WoW, I don't care about what other games did in a WoW classic forum. Also the quessing game "what if...?" is useless. Even though classic isn't 100% vanilla the only way they do non-vanilla content is by advancing into TBC.

I think the classic team is still small, despite the financial success ( maybe because they had such a success with a small team came back to them here :| ) else we would have better server stability, faster bugfixes and yes, the possibility to create actually new content.

On the topic on how they balanced WoW, I sometimes think they just copied Diablo 2:
Amazon has good range and a pet, Barbs are useless without gear, Druids are mediocre, Paladins are easy, Necros use curses, Assassin's can combo and kick and finally Sorcs get Blizzard and are f***ing overpowered. :P

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

The game has little to no AE class abilities.

This is factually incorrect. Unrelated question, why dont you post on your Redridgegnoll account anymore?

My other accounts were banned or something. I like Classic a lot, but there's no competitive PvP. It's kind of like yeah let's grind honor for a bunch of rewards that don't really matter. If you already have raid gear then only the Rank 13/14 rewards are actually worth it. Climbing honor rank isn't skill based.

@Stfuppercut, it's nice to see you have reason to post again

@KezanIslander, arena was fun, in TBC - so when they inevitably release Classic TBC, we will play it then. No need to mess with Vanilla PvP now - BGs are due in 2 weeks time, with PvE content like BWL coming early next year. There is plenty of enjoyable content coming soon so you won't need to worry about getting steamrolled in Light's Hope Chapel so much.

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Climbing honor rank isn't skill based.

No one said it was... Classic isnt skill based. Its a very social game. I dont think youre looking for Classic, I think youre interested in something else.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Climbing honor rank isn't skill based.

No one said it was... Classic isnt skill based. Its a very social game. I dont think youre looking for Classic, I think youre interested in something else.

Classic isnt skill based? Wut? Classic WoW has like the highest skill cap of most mmorpgs. I also highly disagree that it is a social game as you can hit rank 13/14 without being very social which means you can get amazing gear as a solo player. I never raided in original classic and played the game like a solo player game with an auction house and match making.

This time around im 5 boxing and it’s still not a social game for me since i don’t have to talk to anyone for anything unless i raid

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Classic isnt skill based? Wut? Classic WoW has like the highest skill cap of most mmorpgs.

What version of Classic are you playing?

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I also highly disagree that it is a social game as you can hit rank 13/14 without being very social which means you can get amazing gear as a solo player.

Goodluck climbing to 14 on your own. As someone who has done the grind to 13 myself, premades are a large part of that grind and with BG's right around the corner, most brackets will require premade farming for the forseeable future to remain competitive. You wont see many players getting to 13-14 as a solo.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

This time around im 5 boxing and it’s still not a social game for me since i don’t have to talk to anyone for anything unless i raid

So youre an outlier (you multibox). Can you play solo? Yes. This isnt the reality for the majority. The skill requirement for pushing rank 14 is very low. It requires a lot of time and possibly a premade. The skill requirement for raiding is also incredibly low, but requires communicating and coordinating with 39 other players. The game is social. This is especially true in the very nerfed version we are playing.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

No one said it was... Classic isnt skill based. Its a very social game.

You are right that it's a very social game, that's one of the main reason why so many people are hooked. Everything in WoW is way easier with a good group / core, almost like the game should be played that way

I can't really agree on that it's not a skill based game. I guess you come from a esport POV, and compared to CS, Mobas or RTS it's mechanically definitely easier. That said, you still need skill in WoW, but I say a skilled WoW player is someone who knows alot about the game, can play his class fast and makes good calls under pressure.
Most of this skillset come only through experience, that's why most decent guild's say they are experienced, not high skilled, but in the end it's skill in WoW isn't it?

FTHforever wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I can't really agree on that it's not a skill based game. I guess you come from a esport POV, and compared to CS, Mobas or RTS it's mechanically definitely easier. That said, you still need skill in WoW, but I say a skilled WoW player is someone who knows alot about the game, can play his class fast and makes good calls under pressure.
Most of this skillset come only through experience, that's why most decent guild's say they are experienced, not high skilled, but in the end it's skill in WoW isn't it?

Yea, I guess this is really dependent on your perspective. When I consider how much skill a game takes I compare the potential a player has to the requirements to succeed. So what I mean by that is, how much potential does a specific class have compared to the requirement to defeat content. The reality of Classic is that you have a MASSIVE cushion for error. You can play a class at about 30-50% of its potential and still down the majority of content. There is room for players to gain mastery and perform at an incredible level and Classic allows some of the best players to separate themselves from the pack, but the game doesnt demand this... The game has a VERY low requirement for defeating PvE content and virtually no skill component to the rank grind. Your success in Classic does not rely on skillful play. Just my opinion.

Classic can be punishing and will smother you with adversity, but networking is far more important than skillful play. You face challenge in Classic in a variety of ways. The primary challenge in Classic is the shear time investment it takes to accomplish anything. Classic is a marathon. But the rank 14's on your server wont be the best PvPers... In fact they will likely lose to a lot of players in duels etc. They just happen to have the time to invest into the grind, there is no skill component or rating requirement. The raiders you see in Naxx gear are going to be guys who were loyal and reliable to a guild for an extended period of time. Those guys sporting Naxx gear arent necessarily mechanically good at the game, they just committed to a raid schedule for an extended period of time. The challenge of raid leading is probably the largest hurdle in Classic, but not because you need to be able to problem solve or overcome ingame obstacles, no. Raid leading is challenging because keeping a 40 man raid roster full and creating a positive play experience within that roster is incredibly hard! Are the mechanics difficult? Hell no. But try getting 40 people to line up for a screenshot after a kill, its hard as shit. Really, it is. It typically takes 5 mins. My point is, the more people you're trying to lead, the harder it becomes. Regardless of how trivial the mechanics are, coordinating 40 people to succeed IS the challenge to raiding.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Goodluck climbing to 14 on your own. As someone who has done the grind to 13 myself, premades are a large part of that grind and with BG's right around the corner, most brackets will require premade farming for the forseeable future to remain competitive. You wont see many players getting to 13-14 as a solo.

Like I said in my previous post, i know you have to run with premades to get rank 14. You can still be antisocial while doing that though and it doesn't require much socializing at all to do organized pvp in comparison to organized pve. 2 months and you're done forever in pvp and you don't even have to join a guild or deal with any sort of guild politics. Pvp you just join a good group and do BGs all day every day.


Also, I think you're equating the rank 14 grind not taking skill with the game not taking skill to play. I agree that the rank 14 grind takes literally next to no skill at all - in fact you could be the best player in the world and you wouldn't beat someone who has two people playing the same account to Honor grind 24/7. But to say the game takes no skill based on that makes no sense to me.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I agree that the rank 14 grind takes literally next to no skill at all - in fact you could be the best player in the world and you wouldn't beat someone who has two people playing the same account to Honor grind 24/7. But to say the game takes no skill based on that makes no sense to me.

Well thats my point. The game requires no skill. There are no rewards that are gatekept behind a skill component. The game requires very little skill. It requires time. You can accomplish almost anything within Classic if you invest time and time alone in a group setting.

As to your point about being antisocial and getting the best gear in 2 months to avoid guild drama and bla bla bla... Youre the minority if youre pushing rank 14 AND multiboxing... First of all, youre probably not going to be getting rank 14 within 2 months (if you do, please link some screenshots, I'd be super interested in seeing your two month journey). You'd have to stay ontop of the bracket for the entire duration, and that wont be easy. It certainly isnt realistic for 99% of the population. So while your argument isn't inherently wrong, you cant label the game as an anti-social experience because you've found one path to success through solo-farming honor while multiboxing and gaining rank 14 in 2 months... This just isnt realistic for the majority and is not reflective of what the game is.

Classic is a social game. There is very little skill required to conquer any aspect of the game.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

The reality of Classic is that you have a MASSIVE cushion for error. You can play a class at about 30-50% of its potential and still down the majority of content.

Right, I am pretty confident that sums up the question if WoW needs skill.

If you look at it from the other side: the only punishment you get for playing bad or failing is that you lose time.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I agree that the rank 14 grind takes literally next to no skill at all - in fact you could be the best player in the world and you wouldn't beat someone who has two people playing the same account to Honor grind 24/7. But to say the game takes no skill based on that makes no sense to me.

Well thats my point. The game requires no skill. There are no rewards that are gatekept behind a skill component. The game requires very little skill. It requires time. You can accomplish almost anything within Classic if you invest time and time alone in a group setting.

As to your point about being antisocial and getting the best gear in 2 months to avoid guild drama and bla bla bla... Youre the minority if youre pushing rank 14 AND multiboxing... First of all, youre probably not going to be getting rank 14 within 2 months (if you do, please link some screenshots, I'd be super interested in seeing your two month journey). You'd have to stay ontop of the bracket for the entire duration, and that wont be easy. It certainly isnt realistic for 99% of the population. So while your argument isn't inherently wrong, you cant label the game as an anti-social experience because you've found one path to success through solo-farming honor while multiboxing and gaining rank 14 in 2 months... This just isnt realistic for the majority and is not reflective of what the game is.

Classic is a social game. There is very little skill required to conquer any aspect of the game.

Never said i was going to grind rank 14 as a multiboxer, just that ive grinded rank 14 before.

And i see why you say the game takes no skill, you base it on the reward you get. I dont use this same logic, when i say the game takes skill what i mean is someone really really good and knowledgeable can beat multiple players who are in amazing gear that don’t know their class.

Games like call of duty have a low skill cap because you can only get so good at it, then you’re basically as good as everyone else. Classic WoW isn’t like that, the more you know, practice and play the better you get and you can be that dude who takes out 3 people in full BWL gear while you only got blues

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

And i see why you say the game takes no skill, you base it on the reward you get.

Yes. The game incentivizes certain behaviors/activites (Raiding/BG's) and the players typically try to accomplish certain milestones to "win". For a PvP player thats rank 14, and for a raider thats Naxx. Reaching those benchmarks does not require skill. People who are playing the game will generally spend their time working towards those goals because those are the goals that are rewarded and reaching those goals takes no skill. Therefore, from my perspective, the game takes no skill.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I dont use this same logic, when i say the game takes skill what i mean is someone really really good and knowledgeable can beat multiple players who are in amazing gear that don’t know their class.

I disagree with this. At a certain threshold of gear, the lower skilled player will still win. Classic is incredibly based on gear... Take a shadow priest in BWL+ gear and place him against a guy in blues. As soon as the priest rolls his dots, the fight has ended. Take a late game SL warlock who is AWFUL, and allow him to roll his dots and press drain life. The fight has ended before it even begun.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Games like call of duty have a low skill cap because you can only get so good at it, then you’re basically as good as everyone else.

Quite the opposite. First person shooters are entirely reliant on skill. You typically wont be able to acquire much gear that others dont have access to if you are playing in a ranked ladder. In most circumstances everyone will have access to the same gear and winning or losing is dependent entirely on a players proficiency at the game. The most pure version of this would be a game like counterstrike.

almarsguides wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Classic WoW isn’t like that, the more you know, practice and play the better you get and you can be that dude who takes out 3 people in full BWL gear while you only got blues

I challenge you to fight 3 BWL players, who are average, while you are wearing blue gear and win. The game just doesnt work that way... I'm not saying it cant happen, but it certainly doesnt happen consistently... Generally speaking, the player with worse gear (if the gear difference is significant) loses. Warriors get to the point that they can global people. Warlocks get to the point that 2-3 of their dots will end the fight in 15 seconds - late game destro locks are insane. Mages can quite literally pom pyro people at a certain gear threshold. The game relies on gear and to say otherwise is either disingenuous or a bit naive. Maybe youre just inexperienced, but it feels like youre being intellectually dishonest to push a specific narrative.

I love Classic. But I love it for the reasons its great... It doesnt need to be EVERYTHING. Its a solid social MMO. Thats it. Its not a super hardcore challenging skill-based mmo... It just isnt. Saying that Classic is skill-based, doesnt change the fact that it is not.

We've fallen pretty far from OP's topic but im CRAVING conversation so im enjoying this =) and RedridgeGnoll's posts are only designed to stimulate conversation anyhow, so I'm sure hes okay with it.

KezanIslander wrote: ↑

4 years ago

As some of you might know you could do Arena in Vanilla WoW. It was only Skirmishes since the rating system wasn't implemented until TBC. How do you feel about Arena in Classic? Obviously, it wouldn't work like it did in TBC, but would having Skirmishes be ok?

Instead of coming out with TBC they should just do stuff with classic like they said and keep it fresh an vanilla like. Oldschool Runescape is doing a good job with their version of an old game. They got a few things that aren't 07 but most of the game is based off of 07 and that's why such an old game is thriving. Jagex does not put any updates in unless atleast 75% of the player base votes on it. I would love to see a classic arena. Who cares about class imbalance. Classes are never balanced 100% anyway. I personally wouldn't mind if TBC became a thing however I think anything beyond TBC would be pushing it.

Vengecide wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Jagex does not put any updates in unless atleast 75% of the player base votes on it.

Im not familiar with RS are there any content patches or nerfs/buffs and such?
I am afraid that some large WoW personality will persuade their community/following to vote a certain way.

I would be cool with them adding it in as Classic+ content like 6 months to a year after phase 6. Arena is probably my favorite part of WoW, but I also don't really think it belongs in vanilla.