I started writing this as a reply to someone's post asking for an optimal raid composition in Classic but felt like turning it into a mini-guide. I want the community's feedback on this, and if possible we can make changes here and there for it to be worthy of being an actual resource.
Raid composition in Classic isn't really set in stone. Groups of 40 people are loose enough to afford a few slackers or abnormal builds. However it's good for inexperienced Classic raid leaders to have a proper, basic template to strive for.
Points to remember are generally:
- Warriors are the best tanking class by far and you should feel no shame turning down a well geared Druid for a mediocre warrior as long as they know strats because of their way better damage mitigation. 1 main tank for the boss that has to be a Warrior and 1 or 2 offtanks for adds that can be Warriors or Druids. However in a fight that has tank swapping have at least 2 tanks with Taunt ready.
- Priests are the best healer when it comes to raw output, but it's best advised to have at least one Druid just for their unique buffs. If you're Horde, have 1 Shaman in every party of 4 melee DPS to make the most out of Windfury Totem. If you're Alliance have 4 Paladins, each of them with the important role of buffing an re-buffing classes with Greater Blessings. Fill the rest with Priests so you have about 10 healers total.
- That leaves you with about 26 DPS slots. Prioritize Fury Warriors, Rogues and Mages as they should be the core of your army, but have at least a couple Warlocks and remember certain encounters like in BWL require 1 Hunter with Tranquilizing Shot but Hunters are generally meh in raiding.
***
In case you're not an autonomous person, here's a mathematically perfect raid group that should be functional for most encounters
2 Protection Warriors (Main Tank and Swapping Tank)
2 Protection Warriors or Feral Druids (Add swiping/cleaving)
2 Restoration Druids (Combat Res)
If Horde: 4 Restoration Shamans (Total Melee classes in your raid divided by 4, rounded up)
If Alliance: 4 Holy Paladins (* = "Greater Blessing of " to avoid repetition)
>One casts *Might on melees and *Wisdom on mana users
>Another casts *Kings on every class
>Another casts *Light on every class
>The last one casts *Salvation on everyone else
4 Holy Priests, or fill enough to have 10 total healers
7 Fury Warriors
7 Rogues
7 Mages (Each can be replaced with a very well geared Warlock instead)
3 Warlocks (For Curses, Banishing, Summoning and Soulstone)
1 Hunter (for Tranquilizing Shot and Aspect)
1 Shadow Priest (for the debuff)
Some high damage encounters require up to 14 healers. Warrior/Rogue/Mage damage dealers are expendable compared to the healers and utility classes, and you can swap the least geared ones out for more Priests if your tanks are dying too fast. If you're doing 4 Horsemen, you'll need 8 Protection Warrior tanks, so swap even more DPS out for them accordingly.
***
If you're Horde, remember to put DPS groups exactly like this for maximum efficiency and fill the extra empty slots and other groups however you want:
Ｓ - Shaman with Windfury
Ｗ - Fury Warrior
Ｒ - Rogue
Ｔ - Tank
Ｗ Ｗ Ｗ Ｗ
Ｗ Ｗ Ｗ Ｔ
Ｒ Ｒ Ｒ Ｒ
Ｒ Ｒ Ｒ Ｔ
Ｓ Ｓ Ｓ Ｓ
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."
- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
1 Hunter won't even get you past Magmadar in MC (without your healers carrying the slack - his enrage is shorter cd than tranq)
I'd have a lot more to say but I'll leave it at, your guide is factually wrong about several things (warrior > druid because taunt?, what's growl then?)
Let's just say that it's definitely not suitable
It's a guide made by an inexperienced raid leader in Classicfor inexperienced Classic raid leaders to have a proper, basic template to strive for.
| EU-PvE | English Speaking | Alliance | GMT+1 | Family & Work friendly | Mid-Core]
"3 Warlocks (For Curses, Summoning and Soulstone)" Warlocks are brought for banishes. This whole "guide" is meh. Low effort, low quality. Could highlight a ton of issues after a quick glance but then I'd be writing your guide for you.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑4 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
I asked this in the other thread, but guess I'll ask it here too - what makes a warrior taunt better than a druid taunt?
Lol this guide is trash. So much of it is wrong. It seems like he thinks druids dont have taunts? Pally has better HPS than priest most of the time. Due to limited debuff slots, warlocks for curses ain't a thing.
I don't recommend any follow this guide, it seems like they just watched some youtard videos and decided they were the ultimate raid leader.
Edit: IMO every raid comp should have a war MT and a druid as primary OT. 3rd and 4th string is up to whoever is available.
I'm not aware that it is? I think people forget that bears have growl. people also forget that we do have an AOE taunt for when shit hits the fan too. I'd like to hear an explanation as to why people think this too...
You don't have to get this mad over a forum post, druid main
I was tired and thinking of pally tanks when I wrote that part, my bad
Replies were kinda rude considering I never meant any of this post to be taken as a holy bible, but more like fun speculation of what a mathematically square raid team would look like. Obviously flawed here and there and would not be functional without community feedback but let's separate actual veteran advice/corrections from enraged druid mains flipping the fuck out when you imply a warrior could do their job better.
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."
- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
@midoo
Apologies if I sounded rude - intention was far from it. I asked why you thought there was a difference in case you had something in mind that I didn't know.
I'm a bit split because I had to answer this on the other forum post as well
Midoo wrote: ↑4 years ago[...]bear druids aren't much farther behind Warrior tanks, but their damage mitigation comes from dodge mostly which makes the damage they take kind of unpredictable and erratic to healers.
Druid tanking is obviously doable but if you have the option of taking a low geared bear tank or a low geared warrior tank (people will start raiding in their dungeon blues soon) the warrior is the best choice
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."
- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
I love you Midoo but there's tons of statements you make that need to be addressed. Druids and warriors are on a nearly equal footing (there's still an understandable debate but they're practically twins.) In regards to priest healing, in a coordinated group people tend to take less damage and PWS becomes more prevalent. They're not technically "healing", they're preventing. On top of that Scarab Brooch comes into play and further muddies the water on who is "best".
Depending on the boss fight length, a druid with the ZG trinket competes if not outright surpasses a Priest in healing. But ofc this depends on if the druid can play the downrank/overheal mini-game which is legendarily hard to do. Idk about the Regrowth coefficient on Classic but on pserver this made them gods.
If I'd ever come across Midoo I'd kill & tea-bag him with my big hairy bear-testicles for telling big phawt lies about us DuRIdS.
No rudeness intended.
At least now we know https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=5229/enrage works as intended :^)
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."
- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
Forsakenone wrote: ↑4 years agoIf I'd ever come across Midoo I'd kill & tea-bag him with my big hairy bear-testicles for telling big phawt lies about us DuRIdS.
No rudeness intended.
It seems like most of the people who write guides, do so without having actually play tested anything they write about. After hearing Caperfin say Thunderfury wasn't a good tank weapon, or that it was overrated and then seeing his dungeon cleave guide, I'm starting to think that most of the people who are drawn to writing guides are those who cant really achieve much in the game so they find fulfillment in talking about achieving things in the game. Of course there are incredible guides out there, like Taladrils druid tanking guide (which you should read OP), but most of these guides are complete and utter garbage. They are just a random notepad full of ideas that an intermediate player thinks are important based on their own perspective from raiding... Some of these guides are based on raw theorycrafting and speculation and have never even been tested. If you havent played at the highest level and if you havent mastered a craft, you shouldnt be trying to write guides, because you probably dont know what youre talking about and you will inevitably do a lot more harm than good.
You can say this was not intended to be the "holy bible" but then what was it intended for? It is a guide. You labeled it a guide. Yet the post doesnt guide anyone... Its just awful and riddled with inaccuracy. And then you say that a guide like this requires community feedback? Why? Guides like this already exist. Theyre accurate. Written by knowledgeable players and dont require being rewritten. I could wipe my ass on a piece of paper and call it a guide and then post it here asking the community to give me feedback so that it turns into the perfect raid composition guide but why would the community help? The foundation of the guide is a streak of feces on a piece of paper. No one should bother putting feedback into this. We need some better criteria for what should/can be considered a "guide" in my opinion. As a community we should actively avoid supporting these "guides" because they cause grief in the greater community by misinforming players who need guidance and cant separate fact from fiction on their own because they lack experience.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑4 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
My bad for the wording then. I guess I should have clarified my intentions.
This isn't some finished product meant to be used as law, but more like my own vague attempt at getting something started.
Whether my information was accurate or not wasn't really the point. I just wanted to start a thread on the forum that would evolve into a reliable raid composition guide and used my own messy guesses and (admittedly hazy) experiences raiding in older expansions so we could at least have some sort of initiative. I didn't think a minimum of 2 druid mains would take it as an intentional middle finger to their class or anything, sorry if I came off as too assertive or controversial.
NB: My recent experience in Classic definitely proved me wrong about feral tanks.
Not only does God play dice,
But the dice are loaded."
- Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang, "Looking God In The Eye"
Shout-out to one of the best and most realistic Druid Tanking guides (or just guides in general). He is skilled, experienced, yet completely realistic with his guide. This shit is a bible for tanking druids.
Lvl 60
Lvl 35
Holy moly, speaking the harsh truth. (Not sarcasm)Stfuppercut wrote: ↑4 years agoIt seems like most of the people who write guides, do so without having actually play tested anything they write about. After hearing Caperfin say Thunderfury wasn't a good tank weapon, or that it was overrated and then seeing his dungeon cleave guide, I'm starting to think that most of the people who are drawn to writing guides are those who cant really achieve much in the game so they find fulfillment in talking about achieving things in the game. Of course there are incredible guides out there, like Taladrils druid tanking guide (which you should read OP), but most of these guides are complete and utter garbage. They are just a random notepad full of ideas that an intermediate player thinks are important based on their own perspective from raiding... Some of these guides are based on raw theorycrafting and speculation and have never even been tested. If you havent played at the highest level and if you havent mastered a craft, you shouldnt be trying to write guides, because you probably dont know what youre talking about and you will inevitably do a lot more harm than good.
You can say this was not intended to be the "holy bible" but then what was it intended for? It is a guide. You labeled it a guide. Yet the post doesnt guide anyone... Its just awful and riddled with inaccuracy. And then you say that a guide like this requires community feedback? Why? Guides like this already exist. Theyre accurate. Written by knowledgeable players and dont require being rewritten. I could wipe my ass on a piece of paper and call it a guide and then post it here asking the community to give me feedback so that it turns into the perfect raid composition guide but why would the community help? The foundation of the guide is a streak of feces on a piece of paper. No one should bother putting feedback into this. We need some better criteria for what should/can be considered a "guide" in my opinion. As a community we should actively avoid supporting these "guides" because they cause grief in the greater community by misinforming players who need guidance and cant separate fact from fiction on their own because they lack experience.
Thats sort of my role these days.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑4 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
You could have taken the time to guide Midoo to better answers or help him see what the issues are and by doing that helped him become a better player, and possibly help everyone else reading this topic too, leading everyone to learn something new.
He asked for feedback and instead you liken his attempt to feces using vulgar and condescending language and a show of poor manners.
Yeah, way to go man, you really showed him!
Still mad about my critique on your moderation? No need to hunt for my "poor manners", just ban me on the spot if you're unhappy with my presence on the forums. I've told you before that I'm not willing to censor myself via private messages. That has not changed.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑4 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
Why can’t you just help people who are clearly trying instead of looking down your nose at them?Stfuppercut wrote: ↑4 years agoStill mad about my critique on your moderation? No need to hunt for my "poor manners", just ban me on the spot if you're unhappy with my presence on the forums. I've told you before that I'm not willing to censor myself via private messages. That has not changed.
If you want a ban for being a silly mug then I’ll give you what you ask for but I want to know first why you post things like that?
Just because it’s easier than trying or because it makes you feel good about yourself? Why?
I think that is a bit disingenuous. I do help people who need it. I dont coddle people Gnoll, Monarch and Duki who are a net loss to the site and I like to highlight their ignorance because I believe its important to question their credibility. In the same vein I question players like Caperfin who do an overall net harm by spreading misinformation. I dont mind being a bit abrasive if it serves to inform players or prevent people from being misinformed. In Monarchs case, the guy is a terror on the site and has big ideas about how the game should be played or how it should be developed. just like Gnoll. In this circumstance highlight this is important to inform people that this is not a valuable source of information. In this specific circumstance, a user has built a 40 man raid comp guide, but it isnt valuable. He clearly has no raid experience, so making this guide does harm to the community for would-be users who aim to use this "tool" to guide their raid teams.teebling wrote: ↑4 years agoWhy can’t you just help people who are clearly trying instead of looking down your nose at them?
If you want a ban for being a silly mug then I’ll give you what you ask for but I want to know first why you post things like that?
Just because it’s easier than trying or because it makes you feel good about yourself? Why?
But you already know I post quality posts, as you've said in the past. You just dont like being criticized and thats fine. Bringing the awful posters down a peg does nothing for me, but it does help to police the forums a bit, which this site desperately needs. So I do my part. Some call this mean, others abrasive, cyber bullying... I like to think of it as peer review. These posts are low quality and I aim to highlight the reasons that they are low quality and I question the source who is giving the information. Without people like me calling BS, the forum would be flooded with trash guides made by players who have not raided... It would be a silo of ignorance.
2000 IQg0bledyg00k wrote: ↑4 years agoNever making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
He's never heard of Wheaton's Law.
That said the OP felt the need to copy paste his reply in another thread verbatim, so he put himself in a position of "look at me, I'm making guides".
The same information was present in an ongoing thread and could receive feedback and corrections there in a conversational manner.
Now would I be all douchey about it myself? Absolutely not.
But there is a kind of conceit here.. guides are supposed to add or collate useful information.
Statements like this
in the face of the quality of information preceding it are ridiculous.In case you're not an autonomous person, here's a mathematically perfect raid group that should be functional for most encounters
| EU-PvE | English Speaking | Alliance | GMT+1 | Family & Work friendly | Mid-Core]Here is a completely uninformed Horde raid group for Molten Core I have just made up because it’s fun – this is not BiS and I won’t ever claim to be able to formulate the perfect raid composition:
- Prot Warrior, Fury Prot Warrior, Feral Druid, Shadow Priest, Warlock (Tank/OTs with imp blood pact and vampiric embrace heals)
- Prot Warrior, Feral Druid, Fury Warrior, Rogue, Resto Shaman (Threat/Melee Group)
- Imp WF Shaman, Fury Warrior, Fury Warrior, Combat Rogue, Combat Rogue (Windfury group)
- DPS Feral Druid, GoA Totem Enh Shaman, Trueshot Aura Hunter, Dagger Rogue, BM Hunter with Wolf Pet for Furious Howl (Non-windury group)
- 4 Mages, Boomkin Druid (Mages with crit aura)
- 4 Mages, Warlock (Caster group)
- 4 holy Priests, Resto Shaman for mana tide (Healing group)
- Warlock, Resto Druid, 2 Holy Priests, Resto Shaman for mana tide (Healing/caster group)
8 Mages (Frost/Arcane for MC)
7 Priests (6 Holy priests, 1 Shadow)
6 Warriors (Prot & Fury)
5 Shamans (Totems, Totems, Totems! Also Chain heal for melee groups)
5 Druids (innervates, brez, crit auras)
4 Rogues (combat rogues for windfury, dagger rogue for agi group)
3 Warlocks (banishes and curses)
2 Hunters (enough for tranq shot? Also furious howl and trueshot aura for non windfury group)
Thoughts? I really like the idea of a non-windury Agi/AP group - I would like to see this one in action with the improved Grace of Air totem providing huge benefits to the other members. Enh shaman can apply windfury weap to his own weap and dropping Grace of Air to benefit remainder of group. Prob a 0/30/21 shaman to still have healing/NS capabilities and not taking up debuff slot with Stormstrike. Imp GoA totem provides 88 agi to the group which for a feral druid is 4+% crit and even 3% for a rogue, who is also getting 3% from Leader of the Pack.
Druid heavy also. Utilising their tanking ability, their leader of the pack buff, and also the brez/innervates. Resto shamans for mana tide and totems.
Lvl 60 Lvl 35- 1
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