Are they viable for PvE and PvP? On YT most ppl say that human rogues are good for DPS because they have a sword skill buff, but can I use daggers at all in endgame PvE and PvP?

I used to raid in my pvp spec with daggers and it was fine. I guess it depends on the guild you join, sword spec is better for sure, but if your guild isn't min/max focused i dont see a problem.

Human rogues are BiS with swords. Daggers are viable in every tier of content. /thread

Kuro wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Are they viable for PvE and PvP? On YT most ppl say that human rogues are good for DPS because they have a sword skill buff, but can I use daggers at all in endgame PvE and PvP?

Also there is ambush spec if i'm not mistaken, kinda nasty spec for pvp as for your enemies, but for you can be super fun.

Thank you guys for replies!

I guess if you're rolling nelf you might as well actively use daggers.

Kchlangendin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Also there is ambush spec if i'm not mistaken, kinda nasty spec for pvp as for your enemies, but for you can be super fun.

One of my fondest memories of vanilla: A friend of mine and myself were in an AB, both on our rogues. I was sneaking up on the stables flag but there was someone guarding it. Before I could sap and cap, the guy guarding the cap fell dead to the ground and out of stealth came my friend at full sprint. He had scooped up the berserker buff and hit sprint so he could beat me to the guy guarding the cap. He was using daggers with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14081/improved-ambush. Twas a glorious day!

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Human rogues are BiS with swords.

That's not exactly true.

Sure, humans are better than other sword rogues because free 5 skill is always nice and you can get to 310 with combat specc.

But highest raid dps is and will always be combat daggers for rogues. Especially in the prebis phase and with the power spikes of Ragnaros / Cthun / KT daggers. And you can get to 335+ Dagger weaponskill if you collect all items ( don't do that ).
The combined talent's make your backstab that strong, that you even stop using eviscerate because backstab would be better dmg. (You still use SnD ofc).

I mean some skilled rogues players even switched to playing fury warriors, because they don't like daggers, but want to compete in DMGmeters.

For PVP the duelling / wpvp community used 21/8/22 specs which is using daggers.

But today alot can work. Build's with hemo and the MSA Naxxramas mace were pretty common on pservers for example.

FTHforever wrote: ↑

4 years ago

But highest raid dps is and will always be combat daggers for rogues.

I dont agree with this. There's a big difference between theoretical max DPS and actual DPS. In a raid, only one fight is actually a Patchwerk fight. For the most part you move around, the boss turns, things happen.

The downside to dagger is primarily two things. The first is the positional requirement of Backstab which means sometimes you cannot use the ability when you need to, and the other is the high energy cost. These two things together mean that there can be times where you wont get to use your Backstab, and you end up overcapping and wasting energy.

You can also get into a situation in which Backstab get dodged, and you end up with a partial energy refund. This can really screw up your rotation and make it very difficult to use finishers for the remainder of the fight. Daggers also build combo points a lot slower, which means getting Slice and Dice up at the start of the encounter is quite difficult. This matters more the higher your raids total DPS is, as slice and dice will be up for less portions of the fight.

It's also harder to manipulate the swingtimer as Daggers, especially on Horde where you have Windfury, and the high energy cost make it more difficult to do things like pooling your energy in anticipation of a Crusader proc so you can get an additional CP builder off during the duration of the proc. It's a lot of small things like there.

Additionally the weapon skill advantage with Daggers isnt really there. You get 5 weapon skill from talents to both Sword and Dagger, which is the most important breakpoint. As a Human, you wont then need any weapon skill at any point in the game for either weapon type, and non-humans could pick up Maladath from BWL for a total sword skill of +9 which is slightly above the weapon skill cap of +8.

Got some nice points there, Holyfrog. I am really enjoying a educated discussion.

As I edited, SnD uptime isn't an issue, because it's the only finisher you use because eviscerate would a energy waste.

The position requirement looks like an bigger issue than it is, because firstly most pservers have incorrect angles: classic has more generous angles. And second as most physical dps a huge part of your DPS is white hits, and they land while moving.

Then on energy management: you want to backstab at 80-100 energy to have a kick or feint available all the time, or a SnD if you need to switch targets.

I can't really comment on the windfury thing, because I am not really in the current horde meta anymore, but what you said about that makes sense!

On why many top rogues not playing draggers: I think the main reason is availability, you need the top dagger to compete which after Ragnaros gets really difficult to get because Cthun / KT are far off. On the other hand you get plenty of sword options in vanilla, in every tier.

So in my experience, and I think if legacyplayers would be more reliable I am still sure daggers will be theoretically and in the hand of a gifted and lucky ( with drops ) players will still be the best DPS option for rogues.

Cletus wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Kchlangendin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Also there is ambush spec if i'm not mistaken, kinda nasty spec for pvp as for your enemies, but for you can be super fun.

One of my fondest memories of vanilla: A friend of mine and myself were in an AB, both on our rogues. I was sneaking up on the stables flag but there was someone guarding it. Before I could sap and cap, the guy guarding the cap fell dead to the ground and out of stealth came my friend at full sprint. He had scooped up the berserker buff and hit sprint so he could beat me to the guy guarding the cap. He was using daggers with https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=14081/improved-ambush. Twas a glorious day!

I have almost similar experience except the fact that was during leveling, i've been playing as a dru, but not just dru a jack of all trades dru, and i had super good gear for my level around 40ish, and i could do the same thing against magies and other clothes, the feeling you one shot an enemy feels sooo fun

Holyfrog wrote: ↑

4 years ago

FTHforever wrote: ↑

4 years ago

But highest raid dps is and will always be combat daggers for rogues.

I dont agree with this. There's a big difference between theoretical max DPS and actual DPS. In a raid, only one fight is actually a Patchwerk fight. For the most part you move around, the boss turns, things happen.

The downside to dagger is primarily two things. The first is the positional requirement of Backstab which means sometimes you cannot use the ability when you need to, and the other is the high energy cost. These two things together mean that there can be times where you wont get to use your Backstab, and you end up overcapping and wasting energy.

I would say the positioning is not an issue even in fights involving dragons as the angles are quite bigger than on pservers. And as a dagger rogue you plan your rotation and play around high energy cost. So these are really not issues.

You can also get into a situation in which Backstab get dodged, and you end up with a partial energy refund. This can really screw up your rotation and make it very difficult to use finishers for the remainder of the fight. Daggers also build combo points a lot slower, which means getting Slice and Dice up at the start of the encounter is quite difficult. This matters more the higher your raids total DPS is, as slice and dice will be up for less portions of the fight.

If the first sentences are true, the same would apply to sword rogue. But it is difficult only with the next finisher. And as dagger rogue primarily uses only SnD and almost never Evis, that is really not a problem. Also main rogue's damage comes from white attacks, so it is really not that difficult.

It's also harder to manipulate the swingtimer as Daggers, especially on Horde where you have Windfury, and the high energy cost make it more difficult to do things like pooling your energy in anticipation of a Crusader proc so you can get an additional CP builder off during the duration of the proc. It's a lot of small things like there.

Crusader with daggers is little bit discutable and I personally like agi and +5 WS. BUT I plan to test this on classic wow quite extensively so I cannot answer this atm. Soyour statement is yet to be proven.

Additionally the weapon skill advantage with Daggers isnt really there. You get 5 weapon skill from talents to both Sword and Dagger, which is the most important breakpoint. As a Human, you wont then need any weapon skill at any point in the game for either weapon type, and non-humans could pick up Maladath from BWL for a total sword skill of +9 which is slightly above the weapon skill cap of +8.

5 weapon skill from talents really is important, but weapon skills does not end with +8. In vanilla weapon skills should not be above +10 as at that number you will remove dmg reduction of glancing blows on level 63 elite (glancing blows are 40% of all attacks). I personally plan to using the talent and gloves (Which will give +10) until Im proved otherwise. When Seal fate spec will come into consideration, I might have to do with +8 (with dagger from Cthun). But that is all left to be seen.

Edit: I should add that Im open to suggestion and I would be very happy to be proven wrong as that would mean I will learn some more about the game we all love