Marxman wrote: ↑

4 years ago

No. Gold is actually worth something in Classic. I'd like to keep it that way, if possible. I realize gold sellers and bots are going to exist, but that's Blizzard's problem to solve. The token makes sense in retail because A) people are rich beyond imagination and B) Gold isn't very important in retail.

Hit it right on the marx!

This stuff existed in vanilla and will in classic, blizzard will handle it by banning in the past most likely

Being able to buy gold "legally" would 100% make me do it, and I would hate myself for doing it in Classic.

I do not want tokens in WoW Classic. While I understand that bots/farmers can still cause inflation, I think buying tokens would have a greater impact on the economy.

Marxman wrote: ↑

4 years ago

No. Gold is actually worth something in Classic. I'd like to keep it that way, if possible. I realize gold sellers and bots are going to exist, but that's Blizzard's problem to solve. The token makes sense in retail because A) people are rich beyond imagination and B) Gold isn't very important in retail.

Gold is worth a lot more when black gold isnt being injected into the market. The token doesnt devalue gold. In fact it does the opposite. It gives gold a baseline monetary value.

MeatLumps wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I do not want tokens in WoW Classic. While I understand that bots/farmers can still cause inflation, I think buying tokens would have a greater impact on the economy.

Bots and farmers have a greater impact on the economy.

This new thread is pretty irritating given the work other posters had on the previous thread I created a few days ago. By starting a new thread we are essentially restarting this entire conversation. A poll was not worth recreating the thread. A simple yes/no vote is not as valuable as stating your opinion and giving supporting evidence to sell that claim to your peers. The truth is, anyone here can click yes or no, but building a compelling argument for or against the token is a bit more challenging.

"No, I dont like the token because it was anti vanilla. Tokens are bad. I hate token stuff. I voted no! Tokens are bad for the economy! Tokens make the game pay to win! Tokens create gold!" - not valuable, not accurate and not helping the conversation.

Some facts: The game was always pay to win. See previous thread with sources indicating that the gold farming industry was massive. No one here has provided a link to support that the token increases the quantity of gold being traded between players.

All indications of Classic would lead a logical thinker to presume that the demand for gold will INCREASE in Classic.

The base cost of Classic is LESS than retail vanilla was 15 years ago which will mean gold selling will have a lower overhead. Bot detection and anti cheat have improved, but there are still bots actively working in retail meaning that this isn't a perfect solution. Which is why retail DID implement the token. Removing all the bots still doesn't address the gold farming issue. The token destroys both methods of selling gold simultaneously (at a mass commercialized level).

These are all facts. Facts that can be supported by evidence. A yes/no vote does not move the conversation forward without addressing these concerns.

Gold sales existed in retail vanilla. This was a massive market. Gold sales still exist on private servers. This is a massive issue. Gold sales will exist on Classic. The question should be... Do you want the token OR do you want gold sellers/bots? Which serves to hurt the economy more and which will ruin your immersion more? Buying gold will be available either way, and all signs point to this market being as big or bigger than it was in vanilla.

Some more info for those interested. This piece comes from Blizzard directly during the announcement of the token...

"Buying gold from third-party services negatively impacts the game experience for everyone. The overwhelming majority of the gold these services provide comes from stolen player accounts, halting the victims’ ability to play the game and contribute to their guilds. On top of this, gold selling companies often farm resources using hack programs, sell fake product codes as a scam, and spam entire realms with ads to buy gold, disrupting the game in very real ways.

The WoW Token allows players to exchange real money for gold in a secure and sanctioned way—together with the ongoing efforts of our developers, support staff, and anti-hack teams to stop the exploits these companies use and help players who have become victims of their operations, we hope the Token can help make World of Warcraft a safer and more enjoyable game for all of our players." (Blizzard Entertainment)

Blizzard obviously didn't acknowledge that botting and farming got to such a point that their anti-hack software was unable to make a dent in the population of farmers, but based on the sources I linked previously, that was likely the case. The token was the best anti-bot software that Blizzard had ever implemented.

A caveat here is to understand that supply and demand accommodates the gold that is lost during ban waves. The gold sellers don't incur loss when they lose their accounts or a stockpile of gold, they simply raise their prices to match supply and the users purchasing gold incur the loss of the previous accounts being banned.

Source https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/ ... -wow-token

A premier gold seller who specialized in selling virtual currencies from the early 90's to the mid 2000's was Markee Dragon. As a mass gold seller in other games, Markee offered an excellent solution to the gold selling crisis plaguing games 3 years before Blizzard announced their token.

Markee says "what if you bought game time, 35$ or whatever it is for a 60 day code, and you gave it to a friend in exchange for gold?... That's what we used to do in Ultima Online. That was one of the things we pioneered there, they had never heard of that before, and there were never any games with game codes like that before." (Markee Dragon)

Video linked below:



Years before Blizzard were able to deal with the gold selling crisis, those who sold gold were giving them the answer. The token. Blizzard was not the first company to use the token though, other games had success with adding tokens to their ingame environment as well. The token was the most obvious answer to a problem that Blizzard was never able to deal with until the token had hit the game. A problem that will persist without the token.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

This new thread is pretty irritating given the work other posters had on the previous thread I created a few days ago.

Yeah that's true enough. It definitely disconnects the two topics which are pretty much on the same subject.

What I'll do is I'll merge the posts into the original topic. One sec. Merged now.

Sorry @Selexin the poll will be lost. Also holy shit you're nearly level 60??

@teebling Hmm disappointing that the poll couldn't remain, it's interesting to get a feeling of people's stance. A lot more people are willing to vote on a poll rather than put themselves out to be torn apart by someone extremely dedicated to the topic. A lot of the posts claim the community feels one way or another, the poll was providing actual data to back it up. Now the vocal members are the only ones represented, with the quiet or less confident members unwilling to weigh in to the heated and heavy debate.

Back to you @Stfuppercut! The merging of threads has you looking like your talking to yourself at this point!

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Back to you @Stfuppercut! The merging of threads has you looking like your talking to yourself at this point!

You tried to hijack the thread. It didnt go your way. Sorry man. You could always bring your opinion to the table so that we can discuss it? Perhaps you could use some figures and sources to build some credibility.

Now now @Stfuppercut dont get nasty, since the poll wasn't exactly going your way (70% no i think?), it appears your figures aren't actually swaying the people. I voted 'Maybe' fyi. I think they should launch without token and take stock after some time. I've stated my opinion in this thread plenty of times and going around and around is pointless. You've got other people to convince, not me.

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Now now @Stfuppercut dont get nasty, since the poll wasn't exactly going yout way (70% no i think?), it appears your figures aren't actually swaying the people. I voted 'Maybe' fyi. I think they should launch without token and take stock after some time. I've stated my opinion in this thread plenty of times and going around and around is pointless. You've got other people to convince, not me.

Honestly, I anticipated even less support for the token. I believe it had less than 30% though... To be honest, I was a "maybe vote", and was surprised to see ANY "yes" votes. Again though, clicking yes/no isn't very valuable. Scroll back and look through this thread. A large portion of the no token votes, quite clearly don't understand how the token functions. This is why a yes/no vote isn't very valuable. A lot of people are #nochanges. A lot of people don't understand how the token works. Having a discussion about the token is vital to educating people on the implications of the token and hearing their reasoning behind wanting or not wanting the token ingame. This is a text based forum. If you want to have an opinion, that means putting yourself out there and making yourself vulnerable. I made this thread with the anticipation that almost NO one here would be in support of the token. I was pleasantly surpirsed to see there was actually a decent amount of support for the token... In regards to those in opposition of the token, often times screeching "nochanges" in easier than understanding the nuances and complexity of a topic. Some people here have offered arguments against the token. On your poll, there wasn't much stimulating debate.

Hijiacking a thread in hopes that a pole (with clear support) will go your way instead of offering a compelling counter argument, is not a mature way to deal with a conversation.

edit: as far as my ability to sway anyone, we would have to have seen a pre poll to understand how many people had changed their votes. Its entirely possible that I swayed 30% of the users

Polls are part of a democratic society, everyone, no matter how stupid, ignorant or ill informed you believe they are, will have a vote and that vote counts. You are attacking a large portion of the forums members with your posts. You are extremely aggressive and forceful of your opinions, and that drives many members away from posting. The poll was there to represent everyone, not just the confident debaters. I didn't want to hijack this thread, as this thread was a very serious debate, but unfortunately the serious debaters moved over. There is no safe place for the voters unfortunately, their 'voice' is gone now for this topic.

Back to the debate - like I have stated before, there will be bots, there will be gold sellers, that will be a black market that 90% of the community will avoid. Tokens will make a lot of those 90% buy gold. It's something I don't like, but it's something that is a reality. I hope they can launch without it, and stay without it for as long as possible. Token will help deal with black market bots and gold farmers, but I still don't want to have to get to that point. I would prefer it be a true recreation of vanilla. Optimistic? Probably.

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Polls are part of a democratic society, everyone, no matter how stupid, ignorant or ill informed you believe they are, will have a vote and that vote counts. You are attacking a large portion of the forums members with your posts. You are extremely aggressive and forceful of your opinions, and that drives many members away from posting.

Relax, relax, relax. We go through this on every post. You are SO over the top lol. Caaaaaalm down Selexin... Calm.

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

The poll was there to represent everyone, not just the confident debaters. I didn't want to hijack this thread, as this thread was a very serious debate, but unfortunately the serious debaters moved over. There is no safe place for the voters unfortunately, their 'voice' is gone now for this topic.

I'm sorry you felt that way. I'll try to be more gentle with you in the future.

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Back to the debate - like I have stated before, there will be bots, there will be gold sellers, that will be a black market that 90% of the community will avoid.

Source? Source that 90% of the community avoids the black market? Have you read my sources?

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Tokens will make a lot of those 90% buy gold. It's something I don't like, but it's something that is a reality.

Source that the token increases the amount of gold being traded?

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I hope they can launch without it, and stay without it for as long as possible. Token will help deal with black market bots and gold farmers, but I still don't want to have to get to that point. I would prefer it be a true recreation of vanilla. Optimistic? Probably.

Totally optimistic. I agree. Launch without it and reassess later. We were both 'maybe' votes

Edit: still no sources. From a guy who demands sources on almost all of my posts, this ironically does not surprise me. Hopefully those of you who are on the fence can take a look at the differences in argument here objectively. An argument built around sources and information and an argument built around emotion and guesswork.

Do anybody knows? Can I use WoW tokens to play WoW Classic that is going live in 2 weeks?

I don't see how this is even a question. Chinese gold farmers and bots are part of the Authentic Classic Experience(TM).

There are currently no bots running retail from what I understand. Please reference an actual bot before claiming the problem of botting. Can you provide a name or a link?

I think you are conflating no-lifers or straight up gold farmers on retail that flood the market and just "undercut by flooding" and this in turn, makes you think they are bots. People are just able to live nowadays on WoW... its quite possible... if your job was say, night shift at McDs, and you hate working there, so you work to scrap by on food rent and wifi, then fill in the holes with WoW....

I wouldn't want at all to introduce the token in classic. Why? Mainly because I prefer the idea of gold being won within the game and with effort in it.
One of the best things of a role-playing game is to live adventures in another world, with a character that is not you.
As far as economics is concerned, you can be a poor rat in the real world while in the game you're a wealthy blacksmith, or on the other side, you may be a rich businessman in real life, but in Azeroth, you'll have to bend down and pick flowers to earn your bread.
I believe that the economies of the two worlds should be separate. Always.

As for the argument that people who want to buy gold can do so illegally... well at least let's not make it so easy.

Valdred wrote: ↑

4 years ago

As for the argument that people who want to buy gold can do so illegally... well at least let's not make it so easy.

It not easy at all in the present, retail version of the game. Search Warden Blizzard on Wikipedia/Google and you will quickly see that Blizzards cheat detection is off the charts hard to bypass, due to hash checking and pattern matching - to the point where the depth of Warden raises legitimate privacy concerns. People claiming WoW botting is a threat in this thread are widely mis-informed and live in the state of mind set in wow 2 years ago - when botting actually made the Legion economy messed up.

Akalia wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Do anybody knows? Can I use WoW tokens to play WoW Classic that is going live in 2 weeks?

The only way that you can use WoW tokens to play Classic, is if you purchase them using gold in BFA. They add game time to your account overall, which (obviously) includes Classic. Classic itself will not have a store that you can purchase tokens from.

Czar wrote: ↑

4 years ago

There are currently no bots running retail from what I understand. Please reference an actual bot before claiming the problem of botting. Can you provide a name or a link?

I think you are conflating no-lifers or straight up gold farmers on retail that flood the market and just "undercut by flooding" and this in turn, makes you think they are bots. People are just able to live nowadays on WoW... its quite possible... if your job was say, night shift at McDs, and you hate working there, so you work to scrap by on food rent and wifi, then fill in the holes with WoW....

Referenced on page 1. Take the time to read through the entire thread.

Kolvacs wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Classic itself will not have a store that you can purchase tokens from.

Yet. We may see that later on though.

I'd rather not have to choose between illegal crack and legal crack, but If I absolutely had to choose I'd prefer the scenario where not peddling crack is someone else's problem and not a self-policing issue.

Also google "bfa cheap gold" and then come back with how the token solved the illicit gold-selling problem.
All it did is grab Bobby Kotick a piece of the pie.
And if they could find a way to monetize boosts for real money it would already be in-game and gameplay concerns and game integrity be damned.

You are exactly the kind of audience that doesn't know what the f they want, enabling the beancounters to destroy a game one step at a time for your personal "convenience" then crying 10 years later "why is retail so shit".

Roadblock wrote: ↑

4 years ago

enabling the beancounters to destroy a game one step at a time for your personal "convenience" then crying 10 years later "why is retail so shit".

Modern WoW is shit for reasons that have NOTHING to do with convenience.

Black Monarch wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Modern WoW is shit for reasons that have NOTHING to do with convenience.

That's not entirely true. LFG/LFR alone can be slotted into the convenience factor. Not having to go to the trainer for spells, also convenience. Automatic flight paths based on level, convenience. They all made the game much smaller, less immersive and less social by making everything instant/teleporty/convenient. That's why we want vanilla back, to get our world back, to get the Role Play back into MMORPG.

This is deviating from the topic though.