I would like to add that in Vanilla the exclusivity of PvP gear already has a remedy: Raid gear is just as good if not better in some instances.

There are specs that want their PvP gear badly (spriests, retpal, feral druid if I remember correctly are some) but for people playing things such as mage, warlock, hunter, etc. their tier gear is phenomenal in PvP.

The commitment is much smaller per week, and very doable. Yes, you might have to wait a bit and coordinate with others rather than just solo pugging the entire way, but I think the whole point of this is that vanilla WoW is not for soloing if you want to get very far in either of PvP or PvE. Make friends, run raids and pre-mades and compete against other people and their friends.

Nymis wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Finally, the fact that people want the gear to be easier to get is exactly what they are arguing about here. The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put. All these changes would make it easier for them to get the gear. Whether they think it's a great idea to do it with Honor points, minimum number of games, it's whatever - they still want to get the same gear on a level of effort which they find reasonable.

I admit that maybe my proposition was a bit too simple one and would make gearing up potentially easier and more accessible. On the other hand people here have had some brilliant ideas such as reducing amount of honor needed for certain rank and dividing premades from solo players. I think you are being too general stating that "The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put.", because, the whole point is not about reducing the effort you need to put in, but more about making the system more reasonable so the actual skilled players could get the rewards they deserve.

I'm not saying that honor points are perfect but it's the first system they've introduced to fix this. You have to admit that 16 hours a day is absolutely insane and there is no skill involved and even the most skilled PvPers have to work or go to school and also have to eat and sleep. It's just a faulty system by default and even if you put all your free time into WoW (say 8 hours) it's just impossible. There's a reason why it was the first thing they changed with TBC. Also TBC in this regard is considered even better than Vanilla, so why not borrow a bit from it too?

After all, all we want in WoW Classic is longetivity so we can enjoy it as long as we please. If you want total authenticity you can always visit a private server which may not be to 100% blizzlike in droprates and stuff, it definitelly the same in terms of mechanic. There you will see why some people would like some changes. It's not because we don't like the game, in fact we like it so much we don't want to see it fail because of some systems that they didn't think through in 2004. Slippery slope argument is stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have so we can implement only the positive ones (like loot sharing). There is really no reason to be so purist.

Do you want a broken game that's gonna be exploited till it's death or an actual fun experience with all the good stuff from Vanilla with just a bunch of tweaks that will make the game live longer?

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Nymis wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Finally, the fact that people want the gear to be easier to get is exactly what they are arguing about here. The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put. All these changes would make it easier for them to get the gear. Whether they think it's a great idea to do it with Honor points, minimum number of games, it's whatever - they still want to get the same gear on a level of effort which they find reasonable.

I admit that maybe my proposition was a bit too simple one and would make gearing up potentially easier and more accessible. On the other hand people here have had some brilliant ideas such as reducing amount of honor needed for certain rank and dividing premades from solo players. I think you are being too general stating that "The current system requires a certain effort which they are unable to put.", because, the whole point is not about reducing the effort you need to put in, but more about making the system more reasonable so the actual skilled players could get the rewards they deserve.

I'm not saying that honor points are perfect but it's the first system they've introduced to fix this. You have to admit that 16 hours a day is absolutely insane and there is no skill involved and even the most skilled PvPers have to work or go to school and also have to eat and sleep. It's just a faulty system by default and even if you put all your free time into WoW (say 8 hours) it's just impossible. There's a reason why it was the first thing they changed with TBC. Also TBC in this regard is considered even better than Vanilla, so why not borrow a bit from it too?

After all, all we want in WoW Classic is longetivity so we can enjoy it as long as we please. If you want total authenticity you can always visit a private server which may not be to 100% blizzlike in droprates and stuff, it definitelly the same in terms of mechanic. There you will see why some people would like some changes. It's not because we don't like the game, in fact we like it so much we don't want to see it fail because of some systems that they didn't think through in 2004. Slippery slope argument is stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have so we can implement only the positive ones (like loot sharing). There is really no reason to be so purist.

Do you want a broken game that's gonna be exploited till it's death or an actual fun experience with all the good stuff from Vanilla with just a bunch of tweaks that will make the game live longer?

I dont think you will find anyone that likes the Vanilla PvP system and no one is arguing that its the better version in anyway, but that isnt the point. we did not want to bring back Vanilla to improve it. If that was the case the movement would have demanded TBC which was better in pretty much every way outside of flying (even then, flying wasnt as much of an issue as it was in later expansions due to its very high cost and barrier to entry).

They demanded classic to take it back to what the game was. We dont want a better classic. We just want classic. Class balance if done properly would make Vanilla better also, but it would be majorly changing the game. However more than that, I dont think anyone trusts Blizzard to change it in the right or positive way. I dont think its such a bad thing to just accept R14 will be for the very few and that is all. There is no shame in ranks 10 - 13

@Toastea Well that's what I was talking about towards the end of my post. The issue with purist behavior is that the whole "it's broken but let's not fix it" point of view actually damages the game. Yeah the Classic is a great game and the arguments against TBC could be that it just moved the focus of the game out of Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms to Outland, with all end-game stuff being there and thus it started to make the world feel less alive. In Classic you can see 60s almost everywhere in the world because they are traveling to a raid or doing professions. All that just moves to Outland with TBC. That's why Classic is superior I think, because it makes the game feel as a one finished piece and doesn't make low level zones irrelevant.

I never mentioned class balance and I'm fully aware of what impact it would have on the whole meta and I totally understand a slippery slope argument there as we can't tell what result it would have in Classic enviroment. I believe that changing mechanics of the game such as talent trees, spells, items etc. is completely different category of changes than the changes to actual system (loot sharing, graphics, Battle.net integration, even the PvP system) as it doesn't really alter the interactions you have with other players and NPCs nor doesn't change the values. It's something that advantages everyone.

It's like saying the monarchy is shitty so let's have democracy like they had in ancient Greece but slavery too because they had it and it worked so why change it right? The point is when the majority agrees for a change and the change is meaningful there's no point in making the game worse on purpose. As I said in OP, just look on the private servers that use 2004 systems, the PvP is dead there.

@Linguine Well that's what I mentioned in OP too, that some specs have gear locked behind those ranks and the stupid thing is that the raids require much less time for much better gear and if you want to play one of those specs (Ferals, Spriests, Retpals, Enha shams) you just have no alternative. The tier 2.5 and 3 are much better anyway so why lock the only decent sets for those specs behind those retarded ranks.

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It's like saying the monarchy is shitty so let's have democracy like they had in ancient Greece but slavery too because they had it and it worked so why change it right? The point is when the majority agrees for a change and the change is meaningful there's no point in making the game worse on purpose. As I said in OP, just look on the private servers that use 2004 systems, the PvP is dead there.

I just cant see a situation where you can change the system and still have High Warlord / Grand Marshal be as exclusive as they are. The only way I could see it being less unhealthy is perhaps get rid of Honor decay or nerf it? I dont really understand the big deal though, I thought having only one Warlord / Marshall was really cool. I totally get what you are saying and I honestly dont mean to sound condescending, but I just feel any change to the unrealistic parameters would just cheapen Rank 14. I dont see any change they could implement that wouldn't make me think when I see someone in R14 gear "meh, its not a Vanilla R14". Thats just me though and I dont care all that much for it to begin with.

I understand the point that you wanted to make is that you wanted to change the system, but keep the exclusivity. But I simply think this is not possible

Besides in the end, even Warlords and Marshalls will get the floor mopped with them when I get my raid gear :P

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

the whole point is not about reducing the effort you need to put in, but more about making the system more reasonable

Does making the system more "reasonable" means there is going to be less effort, objectively measured by the passage of time while engaged in PvP activities in this case, in order to obtain the same reward? Since the answer is yes, then you are only rephrasing what I've just said.

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

I'm not saying that honor points are perfect but it's the first system they've introduced to fix this. You have to admit that 16 hours a day is absolutely insane and there is no skill involved and even the most skilled PvPers have to work or go to school and also have to eat and sleep. It's just a faulty system by default and even if you put all your free time into WoW (say 8 hours) it's just impossible. There's a reason why it was the first thing they changed with TBC. Also TBC in this regard is considered even better than Vanilla, so why not borrow a bit from it too?

"Skilled" people are already getting their gear and getting ranks is less about skill and more about time dedication, but that's besides the point.

The reason you have to spend "16 hours a day" is because someone else is spending 15 hours a day. That's the point of this system. It's not a faulty system by default because the rewards are based off the person who has the best standing on the server. If by "faulty" you mean that it doesn't allow casuals to get the same rewards as the people who are spending a lot of time in this game, then yeah it's completely broken. Their opinion on what is and isn't a "reasonable" effort is not a very relevant perspective.

The honor point system was introduced alongside the arena system and "TBC is better than Vanilla" is an anecdotal and irrelevant argument to make. The main reason it's "better" is because it has better balancing in PvE for most classes and it introduced Arena, but that's a completely different subject and very besides the point on that as well. The reason it shouldn't be TBC is because that's not the point of Classic Wow, by definition of what their intent is on deciding to make this game in the first place.

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

If you want total authenticity you can always visit a private server which may not be to 100% blizzlike in droprates and stuff

No no no, if YOU want half-assed changes to something they've said was going to be as close as possible to the original game, you're free to go on private servers where there's plenty of people who will share your views in any number of ways. There's servers that give you instant 60 and dungeon tier 0.5 so you can play some of those niche classes you like, other servers that have raids tuned to 5 mans to make raiding more accessible. I know a server that will give you free consumables because it sucks to have to farm consumables for raids and so forth.

It's the people like me who have no place to go for an authentic experience because the data is skewed and long-forgotten, same people who signed a petition for Blizzard to release an authentic Vanilla WoW recreation, not a patched up casual fun-fest for 30 year olds to grind their ass unto Field Marshals on their 3 hour a week play schedule, same people who've pushed to even have this Classic experience in the first place - not the tourists, not the "I don't want any changes, but..." crowd. As far as principles are concerned, anyone who is for changes can go elsewhere.

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Slippery slope argument is stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have so we can implement only the positive ones (like loot sharing). There is really no reason to be so purist.

Personal opinions which betray trivial knowledge of the game's mechanics and history are also stupid, because we already know the impact these changes have had on the game so we know that there is no such thing as only "positive" changes, as all of the changes added to the game have had a negative impact as well. There's no reason to act like a casual and ask for Blizzard to adjust the game to your schedule and instead you should either try to adjust to the game's schedule or accept that the point of this game is to recreate Vanilla, not to implement your personal game design philosophies.

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Do you want a broken game that's gonna be exploited till it's death or an actual fun experience with all the good stuff from Vanilla with just a bunch of tweaks that will make the game live longer?

Save those concerns for at least 3 years from now when they might actually matter to the people who are still going to be playing because Blizzard didn't just decide to give them a way to grind Tier 3 and R14 at a "reasonable" pace.

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

It's like saying the monarchy is shitty so let's have democracy like they had in ancient Greece but slavery too because they had it and it worked so why change it right?

No, it's like saying "hey, let's recreate ancient Greece for this movie but without the slavery part because slavery was not cool" and us saying "no, we'll have it in there, not because it's nice but because it's authentic".

Democracy nowadays is exactly what retail is - something which started in the past and was changed with many, many ideas all piled up on one another.

I think more people would be sympathetic to your views on changes if the rank and gear actually mattered, but the fact is the geared offered is not anything that is not made obsolete means that by no lifing and getting R13 - R14 you dont get anything other than something that looks cool for you to wear that says "congrats, you completed a miserable, awful grind, have this". I suppose a case could be made for plate wearers and R13 armour, but the weapons are nothing but a "hey look what I did" stick

@Nymis I don't have any more arguments. I can see your point, you're a full blown purist and I respect that. No point in arguing here. If they don't change it I'll propably just log in BGs during weekends until I get my reps and then just never log again. Even making decay lower or removing it would help, they've done it over the course of the actual Vanilla.

@Toastea Well yeah, the reason I made this post was because I rolled an Enhancement sham just for fun and I knew there were no Tier sets for him but I thought that there's definitely some off set gear from raids. Well guess what, there's like 1 piece for you per raid. So literally your only chance for a DECENT gear (still shit compared to AQ and Naxx) is R12-13. And the same goes for Feral, Shadow and Retribution. All those specs are very viable and fun in PvP but just lack decent gear and get absolutely crushed by raid geared people.

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@Toastea Well yeah, the reason I made this post was because I rolled an Enhancement sham just for fun and I knew there were no Tier sets for him but I thought that there's definitely some off set gear from raids. Well guess what, there's like 1 piece for you per raid. So literally your only chance for a DECENT gear (still shit compared to AQ and Naxx) is R12-13. And the same goes for Feral, Shadow and Retribution. All those specs are very viable and fun in PvP but just lack decent gear and get absolutely crushed by raid geared people.

I cant speak for Spriests and Shamans, I can speak for feral though as someone who mained it a lot. R13 doesnt give you anything that is best in slot

The R13 helm gets beaten by Southwind helm in AQ20, which I will admit it quite the raiding investment. Even so I think you are better of just using wolfshead

The the R13 Shoulders get beaten by many shoulders dropped in both AQ 20 and 40 and if you still want to PvP the AB exalted shoulders beat the R13 ones. There are even some shoulders in Silithis Abyssal Leather Shoulders which beat it out as well

For the chest you are going to have to go to AQ40 or Naxx to get improvements, however the chest piece from Scholo Cadaverous Armor is not far behind at all.

Everything else only needs R12 at most, which is very doable and the R14 weapons are a joke for Ferals, with many other items being better than them. In fact if you wanted to gear a feral you would be more concerned with getting AV and AB rep and the first two raids. Everything else can be gotten from 60 dungeons and the R13 gear has very close substitutes

Kristhan wrote: ↑

5 years ago

@Nymis I don't have any more arguments. I can see your point, you're a full blown purist and I respect that. No point in arguing here.

By https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=11278/magnus-frostwake 's https://classic.wowhead.com/object=2024 ... ing-coffin, I say ! Comparing this https://classic.wowhead.com/npc=8257/oozeling Nymbus to the legendary Purist Thunderwrath ?!? The Omniscience might spare you but I will not !!!

casts https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=16213/purification @Krishtan

Kill gnomes. Get loot.

What's not to like?

I'm also in the #smartchanges crowd, and I think this subject is very complicated. First of all, I love the honor system, but I don't like how hard the rewards are to obtain. Ideally, the blue set would be obtainable earlier, leave the epic set where it is (it really has to feel epic) and add another set in between. Sorta like t1 t2 t3 but for PvP. However, while I would be okay with that, it would completely trump the #nochanges experience and obviously it would be very different than what it once was, so I'm gonna say no to the rework. The ranks are super cool and the epic items should be really hard to acquire, maybe not that hard, but it is what it is. You don't have to get it.

Cletus wrote: ↑

5 years ago

Gensei wrote: ↑

5 years ago

are you going to automatically say that system is bad or it can't exist?

I fancied my idea earlier that pre-made groups should have their own queue for getting the high-end PvP gear (it would not be accessible to solo players pugging in the queue). The goal of this is that solo queue/pugging is made for more accessible so people don't get their time wasted being thrown up against pre-made, well-geared enemies that they have zero chance beating, and they can still push hard for some blue quality PvP gear. Hell, if you want to get into a premade group for the epics, grind out soloqueue for the blues and prove your mettle. Meanwhile people who just want to casually PvP still can do so without fear of getting rolled by premades in unwinnable games.

Yes. Rewards should be exclusive. Yes, I think the overall distribution of rewards in vanilla was fine. I'm not saying that I'm wanting to change that (but you're acting like I am). I'm saying that the means by which that distribution can be achieved can be remedied to a more healthy state of play for both the players themselves and the community.

1. No
2. Current WoW already has systems that support these playstyles and dole out gear accordingly and many people seem to dislike it. By creating separate queues for pre-mades you are essentially recreating RBGs. Additionally, You never really have a 0% chance of winning/losing. I never made it past rank 11 and I never thought going into a BG against a premade was a waste of my time. My gear was never top-tier and I didn't care because I enjoy the fighting. It's why I will go to the gates of an Alliance city and pick a fight outside the main gate. There are many ways for people to PvP casually without doing BG's. Gear is not a necessity for PvP as there are many Vanilla PvP movies out there that will show you. I once 2-shot a R14 warrior that was part of a premade. We lost that fight but it is still one of my most memorable moments (if not THE most) in WoW.
I understand now that your stance is not about the gear and more about the overall experience for casual PvPers but my argument for that is that the system you are describing already exists.

Valid arguments throughout this thread as a whole. Cletus and I ground out Rank 11 and would have continued if our chosen profession hadn't stepped in the way pulling us out of the top 10 for honor gained. (For weeks)

Vanilla PVP is based on honor gained vs the rest of your faction. We were on Mal'ganis which was ultra Horde heavy so we had a 1 hour que for any BG. So we would run around EPL/WPL just murdering anyone we came across for supplemental honor. OR going to cities and picking fights to get as many people around us as possible.

The fact that it was all based off of honor gained is what was great about Vanilla PVP. There was no convoluted system. It was kill, rank up, earn access to gear. [Though the PVP gear is inferior to PVE gear.]

I was a hard core raider, which helped me heal/nuke people in our 6min WSG treadmills. That is the primary flaw I saw in PVP back then. We just wanted gear on par so the grind meant something equipment wise and not just for the prestige.

Bottom line, if its red it's dead. Gotta kill that daily gnome or you'll get the clap.