eKyNoX wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Woohoo, Thanks Caperfin, tell us when complete!

Which parts have to be changed?

I need to confirm the following:
if https://classic.wowhead.com/item=12641/ ... rable-mail effect can be clicked off.
The threat generated by Rockbiter at max rank (not as easy as it sounds).
Apparently Dragon Breath Chili will stacks with food buffs, if you eat Chili after?
Debuff priority of http://classic.wowhead.com/item=13514 and how much threat it deals?
The behaviour behind https://classic.wowhead.com/item=13506/ ... rification. Is like BoP, but can it be clicked off?
The threat caused by the buff: Eye of the storm, Elemental Focus, Lightning Shield, Flurry and https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=20554/berserking.
The threat caused by the buff http://classic.wowhead.com/item=13937, https://classic.wowhead.com/item=8956 and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=17774.
The threat caused by https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11564/crystal-ward and https://classic.wowhead.com/item=11567/crystal-spire and if it resets swing timer and if spamming it continue to generate threat?
(Phase5) The behaviour of http://classic.wowhead.com/item=21946 and the threat caused by its buff.
Behaviour of https://classic.wowhead.com/item=4397/g ... ing-device (can you drop combat in-between boss combat pulse, if timed properly?)

I can help with some of those from testing back in vanilla:

Vanish wipes threat and has no resist chance.

Flask of Petrification prevents movement, attacking, and spell casting - but you become immune to damage. It does not wipe threat, but you cannot have aggro unless there are no other targets on the threat table or you have the enemy taunted. Enemies will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table.

Limited Invulnerability Potion works like Blessing of Protection - enemies which deal physical damage will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table. It does not modify or reset your threat or threat generation, you will continue to generate threat while under the effect, and can potentially gain aggro once the effect ends if this puts you in 1st with 110% or 130% of whoever has aggro.

I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.

I don't think Shaman can tank progression fights in raids. I think maybe prot paladin can do some progression stuff but not well. Like you say, it would still be interesting to see some videos of attempts etc.

I like the idea of shaman tanks. But they were unfortunately just not designed to tank raids. They were designed as a backup/emergency tank in certain dungeon situations. They weren't intended to soak crushing blows from patchwerk. Caster tanks wearing mail are a cool concept, but they are missing key ingredients. They suffer from the hybrid tax. Druids are good at healing and tanking. Shamans are good at healing, and elemental PvP. Paladins are good at healing.... prot has some utility in tanking dungeons, but are pretty harshly hybrid taxed.

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I don't think Shaman can tank progression fights in raids. I think maybe prot paladin can do some progression stuff but not well. Like you say, it would still be interesting to see some videos of attempts etc.

I like the idea of shaman tanks. But they were unfortunately just not designed to tank raids. They were designed as a backup/emergency tank in certain dungeon situations. They weren't intended to soak crushing blows from patchwerk. Caster tanks wearing mail are a cool concept, but they are missing key ingredients. They suffer from the hybrid tax. Druids are good at healing and tanking. Shamans are good at healing, and elemental PvP. Paladins are good at healing.... prot has some utility in tanking dungeons, but are pretty harshly hybrid taxed.

I agree. And if that is the case, they are not viable as tanks so conversations about enhance tanking are silly. Because technically anything can tank with the right amount of heals and gear. People will just spam them to death while they rock every consume in the game... This doesnt make it viable.

When considering if something is viable, we should ask ourselves if these things are worth doing.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

When considering if something is viable, we should ask ourselves if these things are worth doing.

Worth doing is subjective. People do get enjoyment out of a mage tanking an encounter, because it's "breaking the rules". It's certainly not optimal, and obviously if it 'works' you could call it viable, but in that case nearly anything is viable.

I won't stop anyone from trying these things - but they certainly aren't going to become mainstream, optimal, or overly viable to the normal player. They will provide enjoyment and engagement from a part of the community, so it is what it is I guess.

Selexin wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Worth doing is subjective... or overly viable to the normal player.

I get what youre saying, but this is where conversations become unproductive when discussing what is or isnt viable. "Overly viable"? Being viable should not be a fluid state that is left to interpretation. It is either viable, can work in progression and thus is worth doing or it is not viable. Youre entirely right that this is subjective, which is why so many guys play as sub optimal builds and nerf their teams performance to enhance their own personal experience through selfish play.

All content can be downed with 39 players and thus everything could be considered viable by definition, but I dont think that is realistic or applicable within the context of determining if a specific spec should be brought into a team.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I just want to see some video footage of Enhance Shaman tanking during progression. I'm not interested in a fully geared team carrying a poor tank. I want to see this spec working during progression to see if its actually viable or not.

They're viable as an OT who drops totems, and while MTing is certainly possible (the line between OT and MT is often blurred in MC), it's really not a great idea for most bosses. I can give you a real-ass take on how it pans out on any fight BWL or lower.

Mizu wrote: ↑

4 years ago

They're viable as an OT who drops totems, and while MTing is certainly possible (the line between OT and MT is often blurred in MC), it's really not a great idea for most bosses. I can give you a real-ass take on how it pans out on any fight BWL or lower.

I want to see this done - during progression. Even if it is possible... Why? Why gear and bring someone who is only capable of situationally offtanking? Thats dumb.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Mizu wrote: ↑

4 years ago

They're viable as an OT who drops totems, and while MTing is certainly possible (the line between OT and MT is often blurred in MC), it's really not a great idea for most bosses. I can give you a real-ass take on how it pans out on any fight BWL or lower.

I want to see this done - during progression. Even if it is possible... Why? Why gear and bring someone who is only capable of situationally offtanking? Thats dumb.

Full time OT (think second or third tank). High burst threat on the first mob you kill helps smooth out fights in early endgame, and it's pretty easy to snag stray trash when one of your main threat generators has a 20 yard range. They can do MC in pre-raid BiS and they're not exactly stealing gear meant for other classes.
Great FR tanking as well; being able to gear around your own fire res totem makes it pretty easy to cap out without gimping yourself too hard, plus you got a 10% fire/frost/nature reduction talent and a spell redirect on a short cooldown.

Casual/Semi-casual guilds are also just happy to field more Shammies period. Not saying it's optimal, but it can be and has been done. It'll be a lot easier to do on Classic too considering how much less everything hurts compared to private servers.
Only video I have is the Vael one I linked earlier in the thread.

Mizu wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Only video I have is the Vael one I linked earlier in the thread.

Yeah, I'd be super interested in seeing it used during progression to see if its viable or not.

Stfuppercut wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Mizu wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Only video I have is the Vael one I linked earlier in the thread.

Yeah, I'd be super interested in seeing it used during progression to see if its viable or not.

I would mostly just be worried if I had to tank Golemagg as his earthquaking would give me a goddamn heart attack.
Magmadar could also be a bit dicey. I mean it's the kind of fight where everything generally goes fine but I'm actually sweating profusely at the thought of him being enraged for slightly too long.
Grabbing aggro back after a Shazzrah blink could get mana-intensive; the constant resets mean you can't frontload your threat in a huge burst and spend time regenerating, so you might need an innervate.

Everything else is pretty easy to tank because it's MC. I'd love to try and demonstrate that if I can make room in my schedule to raid this time around, because I know that my anecdotal experience doesn't amount to all that much. It's not something I think could become a new meta or anything lofty like that, but I feel that a Shaman tank's success serves to deconstruct the conventional wisdom of raid tanking and kinda naturally lends itself to the train of thought that brought us DW fury tanks. Warriors also really like not competing with you for loot.

TJourney wrote: ↑

4 years ago

I can help with some of those from testing back in vanilla:

Vanish wipes threat and has no resist chance.

Flask of Petrification prevents movement, attacking, and spell casting - but you become immune to damage. It does not wipe threat, but you cannot have aggro unless there are no other targets on the threat table or you have the enemy taunted. Enemies will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table.

Limited Invulnerability Potion works like Blessing of Protection - enemies which deal physical damage will ignore you and go after other targets on the threat table. It does not modify or reset your threat or threat generation, you will continue to generate threat while under the effect, and can potentially gain aggro once the effect ends if this puts you in 1st with 110% or 130% of whoever has aggro.

I very much appreciate your help :) Do you know if the Petri buff can be clicked off?

Mizu wrote: ↑

4 years ago

but I feel that a Shaman tank's success serves to deconstruct the conventional wisdom of raid tanking and kinda naturally lends itself to the train of thought that brought us DW fury tanks. Warriors also really like not competing with you for loot.

Yes, hopefully with enough people joining the fray and contributing we can someday reach noticeable old remnants that we saw from fury tank warriors back in the testing days. Classic is turning out to be much more approachable and smoother than pservers. Just recently a Shaman Tank on Faerlina, offtanked all of MC.

Hi, great job putting this comprehensive guide together.

I'm just a newbie when it comes to wow classic so not everything was easy to understand for me.
Although i'm bold enough to start a shamy alt that can tank dungeons.

I have no aspiration of tanking raids so i got a good feeling not everything is mandatory for dungeon tanking what you listed.

My aim is to do the dungeon runs with pug not only with friends. So would be great to have a dungeon leveling section with talent progression, with stat priorities.

When i read the talent sections it didnt make sense to me to have 5percent more mana and not to have the shield spec when admittedly the greatest weakness of the class is the dam reduction.

@Daidalos Dungeon tanking as a Shaman is very approachable, no reason to worry at all. You should not have any issues even considering this is your first time with an MMO. Right now, a bunch of Shaman Tanks are wielding 2handers and tanking dungeons...

Shamans don't block very often. Shield spec only becomes relevant in Naxx (very niche). Any other time the threat generated by the extra mana from spells is more important. Threat generation is a much more important achievement/goal than Mitigation.

If you have any other questions, feel free to let me know.

A lot of subjects in my guides have been polished and generally revamped to reflect Classic WoW more adequately. If some thing is incorrect (values/data, etc...) please bring it to my attention.

Why is Stormstrike taken? High mana cost and cooldown.

Also, can a 0/30/21 spec work for dungeon tanking or healing? Not raiding.

Moomaul wrote: ↑

4 years ago

Why is Stormstrike taken? High mana cost and cooldown.

Also, can a 0/30/21 spec work for dungeon tanking or healing? Not raiding.

Stormstrike is taken in dungeons because of its bolstering of nature damage, which increases the damage of Earth Shock (our highest threat spell). Also, dungeons are considered very easy, therefore, it's suggested to have a threat weapon which also takes benefit from the instant attack portion of SS.

Yes, you should be fine with 0/30/21 for tanking and healing dungeons. You may encounter difficulties threat-wise if 2 fury warriors are present however, so be on your toes if this ever happens.

What talents would you suggest for a 0/30/21 dungeon tanking/healing build? Or would 0/31/20 be better? I'm just looking for something flexible for gearing up and getting into dungeons faster.

Moomaul wrote: ↑

4 years ago

What talents would you suggest for a 0/30/21 dungeon tanking/healing build? Or would 0/31/20 be better? I'm just looking for something flexible for gearing up and getting into dungeons faster.

0/31/20 https://classicdb.ch/?talent#hZVV00Exukxctz0x I'd recommend carrying a spirit/mp5 and equip it when you drink to save time on drinking.

If you have more questions, feel free to let me know!

First of all, thanks for keeping the guide up to date.

A more general question, what made you shift from a more avoidance oriented version as in the past to armor/sta/SP gear?
I understand that a tank's biggest limitation nowadays its going to be threat generation and keeping up with the dps since we don't have that magic taunt to work with. I really like this version to just increase spell dmg for threat. However, do you not face problems given the lack of +%spell hit and +%hit?
Something I want to try out in the future once I have the PVP gear is to just run my normal ele/resto build with tank gear. Thinking of 3% melee/spell hit + 5% crit + NS + 25%armor buff (if eye of storm procs and threat is not needed) vs. 5% dodge 5+%parry and flurry should be equivalent for dungeon tanking.

For weapons:
The axe Serathil could be a very good option instead of the Timeworn mace for orcs. 20Armor 11Sta vs. 3% hit
Comparing Spineshatter with Timeworn mace on ph3?
A note, 15agy on weapon is only available on ph3+.

Cloak:
I personally would prefer Shifting Cloak to Cloak of warding. +0.85% crit +1.85%dodge +8sta vs. +132armor +5 Def

Shield:
Given that your focusing most of your threat from spells wouldn't Malistar's Defender be a better choice? 180mana and 9mp5 vs some hp and armor

Trinkets:
Almost no shaman will go for Mark of Tyranny. What other trinkets would you recommend for phase2+? I was thinking of Mark of the chosen/Briarwood Reed/AV trinket

@Choffer

Thank you for the support! Avoidance is more sought after for dungeon tanking since there is no stat increasing buffs to take advantage of since less classes are present. However, this avoidance meta was merely for a few weeks. Atm dungeon tanking is fairly trivial and assuming a semi-competent group, it's altogether better to go Agi over avoidance since it increases our armor, dodge and crit. Also stamina is more attractive since it defensively helps us with physical and magical damage. Hit and spell hit is not needed in dungeons since the mobs are lower/similar level as you, thus requiring barely any hit chance. Simply equipping a dagger or fast weapon will help you meet the hit requirement in a roundabout way. Refer to the first talent setup in Talent section to learn more.

You should not have any problems dungeon tanking at this point in the game. Have the appropriate gear on you and carry a few health potions just in case, talents are secondary.

Serathil is a threat weapon, if you have threat problems.
Timeworn Mace is a defensive weapon, if you have survival problems.

Spineshatter offers the unscalable defense stat, as opposed to timeworn mace (scales with "Toughness", "Inspiration"). However, weapons with a lot of stamina are good to equip versus magical dealing bosses.

Shifting Cloak is ideal if survival is not an issue all the while bolstering threat.

I have Malistar (in the spreadsheet) listed as the 5th best shield in the game for threat in the game, maybe I am misunderstanding your question?

Mark of Tyr is ideal for raid tanking but if you don't see doing this in the future, choose Blackhand. Mark of chosen is the 2nd best defensive related trinket in the game and best threat trinket in the game, assuming it procs. Against +2 target it should absolutely be equipped.

I see your point towards armor value.
Exactly my opinion with Shifting Cloak. As long as we using Rank13 gear or similar it is a better choice than guardian cloack.

With Malistar, I'm questioning how it is not superior to rank14 shield for almost any scenario. It has less armor yes, but can make up for it with extra threat potential.

It is a fact dungeon tanking can be done with any spec given the proper gear. But lets move to raid tanking, how does spell hit not play a major role here? A max rank ES/CL resisted will be a major loss on threat and mana wasted.

@Choffer

Malistar is the best threat related shield and 2nd best defensive related shield. Rank14 shield is the best defensive related weapon but doesn't surpass the threat potential of Malistar. (unless the nature damage of Rank14 shield does something unforeseen, time will tell...)

Yes, dungeons are trivial. The talent setup for dungeons in "Talents" assumes a new person is tanking and they won't put a lot of effort and need as much going for them passively as possible.

The threat granted by the talent Nature Guidance is incomparably low as opposed to the massive threat in the Elemental talent tree.
But, once +spell hit readily become available on wep/offhand, we swap to these when we want to cast ES during combat. During pre-pull you can do the same thing for CL. For now in Phase2, we swap to +spell damage weapon which is similar, to the previous method. You can find what I am talking about in "Raid Tanking Strats" -> Molten Core -> Read more.